OK. Clearly, I should have moved the comments about cheerleading being a sport to a separate forum sooner, as the back-and-forth has continued for a few days and multiple posts. So here you go.
And my take is below:
1. DrPezz is entitled to his opinion. I think he knows I don't agree with some of his assertions and criticism from his original letter in the school newspaper, and I stand by the work of my students.
2. The spark for this line of commentary, now known as mrpibb, has a point, too. Mainly, he is saying that you can't really compare the accomplishments of a sports team's championship or state finish to that of the cheerleaders' state finish. While the second-place finish of the cheerleaders is admirable, it is not achieved through the same series of qualifyting competitions as a sports team. The award is legitimate, it's just different from sports. And that's really all mrpibb is saying, I think. That and other athletes are dedicated, too.
3. I am loath to guide any expression here, being I am a purist toward the First Amendment, but please refrain from raising the volume too much. Let's debate not attack. Not everyone will have a user name, and it is not required to post. In the case of these posts, I don't think it's a big deal, however, I always appreciate people being named, which helps distinguish the various posts -- all from "Anonymous."
So as of now, please post your comments here. Hope I have not effectively squelched the discussion, because I do read each post with interest. Glad to be able to provide your forum.
-- L.
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15 comments:
Loganite, you summed up my position perfectly. I thank you for reading carefully, then offering your honest (and unbiased) perspective.
Everyone has bias, Pibb, even if it's not acknowledged.
In my letter I ended with needing to see more of less visible athletes. This includes all of them. The Apple Leaf also had little coverage of other events. This had already been discussed and debated previously in person. My letter was not about those teams. Obviously, the coverage didn't bother you too much since this is the first time I've heard you speak to this.
Secondly, I never called you close-minded. Maybe you should now heed your own advice about quoting. I said you will not change your mind, and I stand by my original letter. There is no name calling here.
We will agree to disagree.
I feel the Wenatchee World is deficient in much of its coverage of many activities and sports. One article does not make for adequate coverage of any group. Bowling won the state title a year ago, and it got some coverage as did tennis and swimming (though not what I would consider adequate over the course of a season).
I think some sports are overly covered as well.
I'm through with this topic now. You will not alter your view, nor will I. Loganite and I have discussed this as well. We also agree to disagree. As arguing the points will not help, it's a futile and wasted effort.
P.S. Loganite, I await your next follow-up blog on the Schiavo findings and a new one on the Microsoft mess.
"Secondly, I never called you close-minded. Maybe you should now heed your own advice about quoting."
I didn't accuse you of calling me close-minded, and I did not quote you saying that. That's just the impression I get from a statement like, "He won't change his mind..."
As for coverage in the Apple Leaf and Wenatchee World, perhaps they could cover unseen activities more. However, I don't recall seeing any letters to the editor from you (in the Apple Leaf, at least) until there was a problem with the coverage of cheerleading.
Basically, what you're saying now is that you want more coverage of almost everything in both papers. That's a lofty expectation.
After all this, do you honestly still believe that a comparison can be made between the second-place finish of the cheerleaders and the state finish of a sports team? That was the problem I had with your letter in the first place.
Asked and answered.
Since you missed it before, Pibb:
"In my letter I ended with needing to see more of less visible athletes. This includes all of them. The Apple Leaf also had little coverage of other events. This had already been discussed and debated previously in person."
I noticed a lot of coverage on teams that were losing... didn't see too much of the boys swim team having an undefeated season and first at districts/anything else too interesting even though the paper wasn't readily available to me. I, however when I was at the highschool more often, did not recall EVER getting to vote on anything that dealth with issues in the paper (like polls). It would have been cooler if we had more people vote than just like 50 that are in your class or whatever you guys do.
My question: "...do you honestly still believe that a comparison can be made between the second-place finish of the cheerleaders and the state finish of a sports team?"
Your answer: "In my letter I ended with needing to see more of less visible athletes. This includes all of them. The Apple Leaf also had little coverage of other events. This had already been discussed and debated previously in person."
That answer has absolutely nothing to do with the question. Please read my entry carefully next time before you post such a haughty response.
Back to the question...do you believe that you can compare the second-place finish of the cheerleaders to the finishes of sports teams?
"The WHS Cheer team could be the second best on the entire west coast, but we'll never know because they don't have competitions set up to allow them to show this. They, like dance teams and other activities, have to perform in the venue available."
"Is the WHS football championship in the early 1970s worth less than those won by other schools today? Schools today compete against more squads, but I would not denegrate the memory of those [earlier] teams simply because of the number of competitors. They were the best of those teams at that time--end of story."
The number of competitors do not decide how good a team is (or conversely, how bad). Second in the state is second in the state for the Cheer team. Many people would've said "yes, the number of competitors make the difference" not long ago, but a great example in football changed this. Most people would have said that the California state football champion is a much higher honor and a sign of a more talented team than being Washington's champion. That is until our state championship school demolished theirs in a head to head meeting.
Cheer does not have a regular season, nor does it have a qualifying tournament. It is structured in a way that does not allow this. Just because their format is different, it does not mean their accomplishment is any less than any other sport. Out of all the teams in the state, only five or six had a chance at the state championship. Those teams competed, whereas the others did not. Some squads become so good they have to have special divisions (it is not divided by 4A, 3A, etc.) set up or else the competitions are not equitable (Oak Harbor is a great example). Because the specialized divisions are so restrictive and squads know the level of competition, most will not attend. The end result would have looked very similar if a state cheer playoff existed. Performance based competitions (dance, cheer, band, etc.) do not have regular and post-season tournies. Does that diminish their top finishes? I think not.
How many individual athletes can claim they qualified for district tournaments because only certain levels of participation are required? There are no other qualifications for some sports' participants to make certain tournaments. Many sports and activities have allowances, too.
If my quotes from above were not clear enough for you, I hope this was, Pibb. You have gone away from the intent of my letter from the start. You are stuck on comparing the accomplishments, which I have repeatedly stated by position upon. We will have to agree to disagree.
I have not seen your letter to the editor about the coverage or comparison of sports (based on your criticism of me). However, I wouldn't know anyway since you have not revealed your identity.
OK, some clarification, just for informational purposes, about WIAA activities (nonsports):
Dance teams have to qualify at a district and regional in order to attend and compete at the state contest. To qualify, they have to make a certain score a certain number of times using a required routine, number of participants and without certain violations. I imagine this is much like cheer contests. This year our dance team placed second at the regional and did not go to state. In some categories, even the first place team had not met the score requirement.
Choir, band and orchestra all have to qualify for the state solo and ensemble contest through a regional contest. At these contests, the students are adjudicated (rated) and only a certain number can move on from each region, thereby eliminating some excellent talent based on geography.
Debate also has to qualify for state and national based on meeting certain criteria or having a certain score. The competitors have several opportunities to achieve this score, but placement may not guarantee qualification.
In all these cases, there is a certain standard to achieve because, I imagine, there is generally not a series of contests during a season.
In journalism, which is not a WIAA activity, students can attend the state contest on open registration, but entrants must achieve a standard to earn honorable mention, excellent or superior ratings. Only a certain percentage (10% for superior) can earn each rating, and in some cases no awards are given. Winners are warned not to promote their achievements as being "first place in state" or similar. Same goes for best of show contests. Our newspaper placed first in state best of show, but that is just those papers on that day with that judge -- still an accomplishment though. I know because I judged a national best of show and it is very subjective.
So we have to be careful how we present certain placings, and I think that is what MrPibb is saying. It doesn't diminish the hard work or accomplishments, but it helps people understand the context. The state model is not the same for all activities and sports.
Like I said, just for background.
-- L.
You are correct on the WIAA sanctioned events but others can be attended as well.
The problem with the the WIAA is that if activities like Cheer and Dance and other activities of the like become WIAA sports, then everything changes about their seasons, competitions, and coaching allowances. Instead of having one long season, they would be split into very different classifications and restrictions (effectively destroying the programs as they exist). They will only become sports (as other sports are defined) if Title IX becomes an issue, which of course is an end around compliance issues.
Each activity or sport has different qualifying expectations or mandates, but to say one championship is less valuable than another would be insulting and not exactly correct.
The idea of geography is an interesting point, too. Football may realign because the geographic advantage of some areas. Also, I believe a few years back WHS had a track team that was 5th in the state by time, but the other four ahead of them were all in the same region. WHS could not go and their regional time was good enough for 5th in state, behind the four from their region.
P.S. Whew! I'm out of shape. What used to be my normal workout just about killed me. I will not be in the running for state titles myself.
I still don't understand your answer...is that a yes or a no? Can a comparison between the accomplishments at state be made? Given the differences in the structure, I say no. So...yes or no?
"Cheer does not have a regular season, nor does it have a qualifying tournament. It is structured in a way that does not allow this."
Exactly. It is completely different from the structure of sports. Therefore, no comparison can be made.
"Just because their format is different, it does not mean their accomplishment is any less than any other sport."
I never said their accomplishment meant any less. I just said that it is different from sports, and that it is inaccurate to judge the strength of the program relative to other sports based on their accomplishment at state.
"You are stuck on comparing the accomplishments, which I have repeatedly stated by position upon."
I'm stuck on comparing? I believe that you called the cheer squad the "highest placing team at WHS as of the writing of this letter." That, my friend, is a comparison; the very comparison, in fact, which sparked this debate. You compared, I said you can't compare; who's stuck on comparing again?
"I have not seen your letter to the editor about the coverage or comparison of sports."
Your letter was published in the year's last issue of the Apple Leaf. The next issue won't be out for more than three months. Therefore, a letter to the editor would have been slightly late. I suppose I could have written to the Wenatchee World, I suppose, but it might have looked slightly strange to have a response to an Apple Leaf letter in the World. The blog allows us to write more and respond faster; I see no problem with our forum.
Why do you want to know my name so badly? I don't feel the need to publish that information where anyone could see it.
Oops on the double "I suppose." I hate finding stupid mistakes immediately after I post. So frustrating.
Who cares if it's a sport or not? People like to do it. So whatever they want to call it doesn't matter because it's still the same deal.
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